Israeli historian Ilan Pappe: ‘This is the last phase of Zionism’

Copenhagen, Denmark – On a freezing Saturday morning in Copenhagen, Ilan Pappe warmed up in a cinema hall, chatting and joking in fluent Arabic with one of the organisers of a conference he was soon to address between sips of black coffee from a paper cup.

Unlike other Israelis, Pappe said, he learned the language “of the colonised” by spending time in Palestine, surrounding himself with Palestinian friends, and taking formal Arabic lessons.

Hundreds of academics, officials, international rights activists and everyday Danes aghast at Israel’s genocide against Palestinians in Gaza attended the event in the Danish capital, hosted by the European Palestinian Network.

The group was founded recently, and its members include Danes of Palestinian heritage.

Pappe later told the audience that since the outbreak of Israel’s latest war on Gaza, he has been shocked by Europe’s response.

“I share with a lot of people a surprise at the European position,” he said on stage. “Europe, that claims to be a model of civilisation, ignored the most televised genocide of modern times.”

On the sidelines, Al Jazeera interviewed 70-year-old Pappe, a leading Israeli historian, author and professor who has spent much of his life fighting for Palestinian rights. We asked him about Zionism, solidarity, and what he thinks a shifting American political landscape means for Gaza.

Al Jazeera: You have long said that the tools of Zionism, the nationalist, political ideology that called for the creation of a Jewish state, included capturing land and evictions. For the past 15 months, Gaza has endured daily mass killings. What stage of Zionism are we witnessing?

Ilan Pappe: We are in a state that one can define as neo-Zionist. The old values of Zionism are now more extreme, [in] far more aggressive form than they were before, trying to achieve in a short time what the previous generation of Zionists were trying to achieve in [a] much longer, more, incremental, gradual way.

This is an attempt by a new leadership of Zionism to complete the work that they started in 1948, namely of taking over officially the whole of historical Palestine and getting rid of as many Palestinians as possible and in the same process, and [this is] something new, creating a new Israeli empire that is either feared or respected by its neighbours – and therefore can even expand territorially beyond the borders of mandatory or historical Palestine.

Historically, I’m willing to say with some caution that this is the last phase of Zionism. Historically, such developments in ideological movements, whether they are colonials or empires, it’s usually the final chapter [that is] the ruthless one, the most ambitious one. And then it’s too much and then they fall and collapse.

Al Jazeera: We are days away from a new political landscape as Donald Trump heads to the White House for a second time. He has an even louder voice on social media with the tech billionaire and X owner Elon Musk, who lauds Israeli policies and its military, among the senior figures of his administration. How do you see the presidency influencing Israel? Will the war on Gaza continue?

Pappe: It’s very difficult to see anything positive during the second Trump term in office and with his associations with Elon Musk.

The future of Israel and Zionism is connected to the future of America.

I don’t think all the Americans are supporters of Trump. I don’t think all the Americans are supporters of Elon Musk.

[But] I’m afraid there is not much that can be done in the next two or three years.

The only good news is that populist leaders like [US President-elect Donald] Trump and nutcases like Elon Musk are not very capable. They are going to bring down with them the American economy and the American international standing, so it will end badly for America if these kind of personalities are going to lead it.

In the long run, I think it can lead to less involvement by the United States in the Middle East. And for me, a scenario in which you have minimal American involvement is a positive scenario.

We need international intervention not only in Palestine but for the whole Arab world, but it has to come from the Global South and not from the Global North. The Global North has left such a legacy that very few people would regard anyone from the Global North as an honest broker. I’m very worried about the short term, I don’t want to be misunderstood. I cannot see any forces stopping the short-term disasters that are awaiting us.

When I see a wider perspective, I think we are at the end of a very bad chapter in humanity, not the beginning of a bad chapter.

Al Jazeera: Currently, there are ceasefire negotiations. When do you expect Palestine will enjoy peace?

Pappe: I don’t know, but I do think that even a ceasefire in Gaza is not the end unfortunately, because of the genocide. Hopefully, there will be enough power to if not stop it, at least tame it or limit it.

In the long term, I can see a process that is long. I’m talking about 20 years, but I do think we are at the beginning of this process.

It’s a process of the decolonisation of a settler-colonial project.

It can go either way. We know it from history. Decolonisation can be very violent and not necessarily produce a better regime or it can be an opportunity to build something much better, a win-win for everyone concerned and the area as a whole.

Al Jazeera: To Palestinians and many observers, it feels as though the world is just standing by while Israel is expanding into its neighbours and carrying out the genocide with impunity.

Pappe: Well, a last stage from a historical point of view is a long process. It’s not an immediate process. It’s not a question of will it happen, but it is a question of when. And definitely that could take time.

There are developments regionally and globally that allow this phase to continue. Whether it is the rise of populist politicians like Trump, the power of multinational corporations, the rise of fascism, new right fascism in Europe, the level of corruption in some of the Arab countries, all of it works in in a way that sustains a global alliance that allows Israel to do what it does, but there is another alliance.

It doesn’t have the same power, but it’s widespread and it’s connected to a lot of other struggles against injustice. It is quite possible that if not in the immediate future, a bit later this kind of global sentiment that is not only focused on Palestine, it’s focused on global warming, poverty, immigration, and so on – that this one becomes a more powerful political force. Every little victory for that other global alliance brings the Zionist project closer to an end.

Al Jazeera: What does this other alliance have to do? What could help their cause?

Pappe: There are two things. One, we don’t have an organisation that kind of contains this goodwill, the support, the solidarity, this energy to fight injustice. It needs a proper organisation and some of the young people who are part of this alliance seem to dislike, for good reasons, organisations and so on. But you need this infrastructure.

The second thing is to abandon the purist approach that such movements had in the past and create networks and alliances that take into account that people disagree even on fundamental issues, but are able to work together for stopping a genocide in Gaza, for liberating colonised people.

Al Jazeera: Going back to the more powerful alliance that you say is upholding Zionism, you talked about the rise of the far right in Europe. Among them though, there are still strains of anti-Semitism.

Pappe: This unholy alliance was there from the very beginning. If you think about it logically, both anti-Semites and Zionists, when it comes to Europe had the same target, they didn’t want to see the Jews in Europe. Seeing them in Palestine could be an objective both of the Zionist movement and anti-Semitic movement.

Now there is a new layer of uniformity of ideas between the neo-right and Israel, and this is Islamophobia.

The new right is now, although it has still strong anti-Jewish, namely anti-Semitic elements in it, it’s targeting mainly Muslim and Arab communities. It doesn’t target Jewish communities, in particular.

They see Israel as the most important anti-Islamic anti-Arab force in the world, so there’s also identification on that level – but of course, it’s something that Jews would regret outside of Israel if they would be part of such an alliance. Even pro-Israeli Jews in Europe feel a bit uneasy about [those that] don themselves with the Israeli flag, but at the same time with the Nazi flag.

Hopefully, it will make them rethink their association with Israel. We already see the signs, especially in the American Jewish community among the young generation, that they understand that Israel is now part of a political alliance that they as American Jews cannot identify with.

As we say, it allows Israel to continue because of Trump and populist leaders, but it’s also something that will not be forever in the future.

Al Jazeera: The genocide has led many, including some Jewish groups, to study the creation of Israel and the historic ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Have you seen families divided by their understanding of the conflict?

Pappe: It doesn’t happen [in Israel] but definitely Jewish families outside of Israel.

The amount of information that flows is such that the younger generation cannot be blind. Even if they get a very good Jewish education, then even more so, they can see the immorality of the Israeli action.

It’s mostly intergenerational conflict, which is a positive sign because it means that the current generation might be much more uniform in this position.

Al Jazeera: But within Israel, young people also have access to the documentation of the genocide on social media, on platforms like TikTok. But many still disregard Palestinian suffering.

Pappe: They didn’t get the same education as young Jews in America. They got an education from a very indoctrinated country. And that’s the key. They were produced, if you want, engineered by the Israeli education system.

I wrote an article in 1999 warning that, looking at the Israeli curricula, the next graduates of this system would be racist fanatics, extreme and dangerous to themselves and to others. Unfortunately, I was absolutely right.

This is the product of a very indoctrinated society from the cradle to the grave.

You need to re-educate these people. You can’t just show them things and hope that this would move them.

They can see dead Palestinian babies and say ‘Good, very good’. Dehumanisation is part of the Israeli DNA and it’s very hard to confront just by giving them more information.